Taboo's Junk Trunk: A Storage Dump for Taboo's Random Literary and Cultural Blatherments
Label Your Favorite Media Majesty
Published on November 21, 2004 By TaBooTenente In Politics
When it comes to stating our political beliefs these days, we play loosely and aggressively with our declarations. We're the Phil Helmuths and Scotty Nyugens rather than the Howard Lederers and the Johnie Chans of ideologies.



This last round, we Democrats have stolen a favorite tactic of the ghost of Republican Past: the label tactic. Painting GW Bush as anything from cokehead frat boy to a certain fascist regime dictator seemed like a healthy pastime; moreover, it served to whip our disinterested party members into standing in late night poll lines while diehards brought in saucy pizzas and fizzy beverages for sustennance. Unfortunately for us, we also whipped undecideds, moderates, and disaffiliated Republicans into straightening their ties and making their own stand at the polls, into flipping the bird into the face of the unattractive arrogance we have developed.

Political spinning and strategery aside, not only does the labeling seem anti-productive, but seems largely inaccurate to me. Looking for a new, less shrill voice in an earlier article, I believed Draginol, T.B., Dr. Miller (and other conservatives) and I(and other liberlas) were closing in on a consensus as to where the polar divide began, and how certain liberals could approach the problem.

Then this happened:

TaBooTenente states: "One other thing: while I'm willing to accept the left-loonies on my own bill, I'm finding that conservatives tend to disassociate themselves with the right-wing extremists. It creates an unfair balance. Michael Moore offends you (me too, as I've said) into a conservative stance, but I'm supposed to view David Duke as an abnormality?"

T.B. responds (in reference to when he began to feel morally attacked by liberals: I felt like my senses were insulted, my beliefs challenged and a good man attacked by a group of fringe left wackos. I don't know that any particular point was a trigger, more like a continuum that served to continuously push me to further support the Administration (from being lukewarm at best). and "Absolutley!! David Duke was not legitimized by the party whereas MM was, at least what I saw, embraced." (which was a good point, by the way)

TaBooTenente: "David Duke may not be recognized by the Republican Party, but he represents a human being who has taken rightist ideology further into the continuum." and "as much as Fahreinheit 9/11 frustrated me, as did much of MM's antics as the election approached, I would never think of MM, Kerry, or Gore as the fringe left. Look, Kerry is about as middle-of-the-road as liberals get, and Gore's not far off that stride, either...or why do you think Nader keeps surfacing? Ralph Nader also is not ultra-fringe like many think; however, he's much further down the revolutionary ideology than most liberals are comfortable with."

Then Draginol enters with: "I'm sorry but Michael Moore absolutely IS a fringe left wing kook. And until the Democrats distance themselves from people like that they'll keep losing elections.

It is telling that when you look to the right for its kooks you really have to dig. David Duke? Man, he's been a fossil for 10+ years. Pat Robertson has been a nobody for 14 years. The kooky right wingers these days are people like Ann Coulter who is just an author and about as right wing as Al Franken is left wing. There is no Michael Moore of teh right. There's no Sean Penn of the right. There's no nasty, hatefilled violent protesters on teh right. To find that you have to go way back to the KKK (an organization founded by Democrats btw).
"

TaBooTenente: "As far as ideologies go, MM is not a fringe-leftist. His politics are not ultra-left. They ARE liberal, certainly, and they are not moderate. But there is a large gap between MM politics, and revolutionary politics."

And then, in a last passionate closing argument, Draginol reiterates: "And I am saying that no, MM IS a fringe-leftists. His politics ARE ultra-left. I'm really surprised you think he's a mainstream liberal. Have you read any of his books? The only thing that keeps him from being completely out there is that he is (obviously) a capitalist.

Draginol makes an interesting point, but I reviewed my previous comments and realized I had never labeled Michael Moore as a "mainstream liberal". Hmm.

So, if We the People are loving us some labels, maybe it's time to revisit what we mean when we throw around affectionate cuddle-bunny nicknames like "Redneck Hickville Rube" or "Arrogant Traitorous Pinko Nutjob". More specifically, we should understand what we mean when we use terms like "Ultra-Right" or "Fringe Left" or even "Moderate".

I propose this as a generic, basic, linear ideology model:

[--(1)REVOLUTIONARISM--(2)COMMUNISM--(3)SOCIALISM--(4)LIBERALISM--(5)MODERN MAINSTREAM LIBERALISM--(6)L-BALANCED-R--(7)MODERATE--(8)CONSERVATIVE--(9)RIGHT-WING/ MINIMALIST GOVERNMENT--(10)FASCISM--(11)REACTIONARISM--]

Now: where would you classify the "fringe left"? Where would you place the following people: T. Kennedy, Gore, Kerry, MM, GWBush, McCain, A. Coultier, and any others you can think of? Why? Maybe this is the place to start. Then we can get back to some serious name-calling.


TBT
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Comments (Page 1)
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on Nov 21, 2004
I'm re-posting an excellent comment (from a different chain) by D.B. below:


--] TaBooTenente: "We may have a slightly different perspective on this, but we're probably fairly close. I'd be willing to look at another model. But where would you classify the "fringe left"? Where would you place the following: T. Kennedy, Gore, Kerry, MM, GWBush, McCain, and A. Coultier? Why? Maybe this is the place to start "


--] D.B. "I think we are as well. Perhaps this is a matter of what the word "fringe" means. I would characterize "fringe" in the context of American politics, not using the world as a frame of reference. Let's put this in terms of a Gaussian statistical distribution. As such, the middle (plus or minus one sigma) would be 68% of the political spectrum, the left would be the 13.5% (from minus one sigma to minus two sigma) on the left and the right the 13.5% on the right. This accounts for 95% of the political viewpoints taken on the whole, leaving 2.5% on the "fringe" left and 2.5% on the "fringe" right.

Using the Senate as a model, 2.5 Senators could be considered fringe left and 2.5 fringe right. I think it's fair to characterize Kerry and Kennedy as those two on the fringe left (though arguments could be made for others, had Wellstone not passed he'd be a candidate as would Boxer and Mikulski). I'm willing to assume Gore's Brown Shirt speech is an aberration, based on his voting when he was in the Senate, he would likely be part of the 68% middle, McCain belongs here as well.

I also think it's fair to place GW in the middle for a number of reasons. As part of the right (13.5% or the fringe right 2.5%) he would not have supported a NCLB type of government program, he would not have supported as much spending as he has, he would not support Civil Unions, etc. All it takes to substantiate this placement is a look at the country/congress support within the context and time frame of when these issues were/are on the table (Example: 87 Senators voted FOR NCLB, i.e. 13 or 13% either voted aginst it or didn't vote, somewhere around 55% support Civil Unions and somewhere around 65% are against Gay marriage depending on what polls you look at). Obviously, what comprises the "middle" on specific issues will change some from issue to issue (which is why it is difficult to categorize people) however, when an individual is in the super minority most of the time (that 13 to 16 %) it is fair to "label" them as left or right and when they are in the 2 to 3% most of the time it is fair to label them "fringe".

MM it seems to me (as indicated by his world view and support for Nader in 2000 - about 2.7% voting for) is fair to be called "fringe" as is Pat Buchanan (even more so as indicated by the .4% in 2000) and Anne Coulter."

Thanks, D.B.

TBT
on Nov 21, 2004
whats the difference betweem liberalism and mainstream liberalism? and id put moderate as the center.

im not sure about db. 68% as the middle? thats pretty broad for a middle party. sure gore is closer to the middle then kennedy and mccain is closer to the middle then pat buchanen, but senate voting isnt a completely fair way to judge someone, on this type of scale. these guys mostly vote with there party, i know sometimes they dont. id look at who was majority when the votes happened, and whats going on in the world. no sane senators going to vote against war stuff at the beginning of a war. during election years, voting changes too.

plus, something like gay marriage should have more weight then no child left behind. are you saying that fringe is a title you get when you vote different then your party?
on Nov 21, 2004
Sorry for not commenting earlier. Foruming distracts other work I need to complete. So here's some lunch-break comments:

1)Blind: "center" is pretty much a mythical place, but someone with a range of opinions might balance out here, I guess.

2)D.B. I'm not sure why you classify Kerry as the 2.5% left fringe. I assume you are referring to a voting record, rather than a policy platform, but again I'm not clear.

3)I would disagree with using Bush's spending support for NCLB as a claim for Bush as middle-of-the-road; the lock-down NCLB puts on under-funded, under-staffed schools not meeting aptitude quotas is a rather elitist policy that counters many tenets of liberal ideology. Without entering into a debate about the reasons we entered the war in Iraq, I'd say his international affairs policies are significantly conservative policies, concerning the establishment of national interests abroad. I'm too shaky on my support for the Dem platform at the moment to debate what's right or wrong; nevertheless, the policies do lean left or right on the spectrum.

4)But I do find it interesting the way your model adapts to current popular opinion. You are suggesting that popular opinion establishes the middle ground. I understand your model confines itself to U.S. politics; still, wouldn't an extremist popular regime nullify or negate the model's utility? Fascist Germany or Communist Russia, say, immediately after the revolution, would produce tremendously different centers, or middle ground.

I guess I'm not sure that's how a linear ideology measurement works. The concept refers to trends, or leanings. If a person believes in his/her heart that life--social issues, the world, morality--continually evolves and needs to to reach some undetermined goal, then the person leans to the left. If a person believes in his/her heart that humanity is a gift that identifies our species as unique, separate from other forms of life for whatever purpose-- and we should treat ourselves as such--then the person leans to the right.

Popular opinion does not affect your leaning (of course it influences you; but not your objective position in the continuum). It may serve as a way to determine which candidate you support, though.

As such, T. Kennedy might fall into the fringe category, though neither Gore nor Kerry would. Michael Moore still seems like a difficult placement.

MM it seems to me (as indicated by his world view and support for Nader in 2000 - about 2.7% voting for) is fair to be called "fringe" as is Pat Buchanan (even more so as indicated by the .4% in 2000) and Anne Coulter."


I might agree with you on Nader support. But what about his world view identifies him as fringe?

Thanks for your comments,

TBT

on Nov 21, 2004
Sorry to build my own scale but here is my feeling:

90-100 = Marxist Radical
80-89 = Socialist / Left-winger
70-79 = Mainstream Liberal
60-69 =Leans Liberal
40-59 = Moderate
30-39 = Leans Conservative
20-29= Mainstream Conservative
10-19 = Neo-Con / Right-winger
0-9 = Anarchist/Survivalist

Me: 40

Michael Savage: 8
Ann Colter: 12
Rush: 13
Sean Hanaty: 19
Nixon: 22
GW: 22
Sen. Frisk: 25
Sen. McCain:39
Powell: 47
Robert Kennedy: 58 (By today’s standards)
Sen. Lieberman: 60
Bill Clinton: 61
Sen. Reid: 64
Gore (Before 2000): 70
Hillary Clinton: 71
LBJ: 78
Ted Kennedy: 78
Carter: 81
FDR: 82
Kerry: 83 (Only because he always wants to support Communist States)
Mike Moore: 84
Al Frankin: 85
Rep. Pelosi: 88
Gore (After 2000): 89 (The guy lost some of his cookies along with the election)

Thats my take on who is what. Please comment if you wish.

Also, sorry again at changing the system.

That's My Two Cents
on Nov 21, 2004
The problem with a linear model is that at both ends the two sides are almost identical. The differences between a fascist state and a communist one are negligable at best; surely it would be better to use a circular or even spherical model instead?
on Nov 21, 2004

he differences between a fascist state and a communist one are negligable at best; surely it would be better to use a circular or even spherical model instead
 


fascist and communist states are both totalitarian states--as are strict monarchies, theocracies, etc.  spherical model makes more sense for sure. 

on Nov 21, 2004

30-39 = Leans Conservative
20-29= Mainstream Conservative
10-19 = Neo-Con / Right-winger
0-9 = Anarchist/Survivalist


quite a leap there from mainstream to rightwinger to anarchist.  neocon isnt the same as rightwinger or necessarily radical at all in any sense except being a radical departure from orthodox conservativism. 

on Nov 21, 2004
he differences between a fascist state and a communist one are negligable at best; surely it would be better to use a circular or even spherical model instead



fascist and communist states are both totalitarian states--as are strict monarchies, theocracies, etc. spherical model makes more sense for sure.


Yes, both Fascist and communist can be the same. But I believe that a true right wing nut is really the old 1980s survivalist movement with no government, an anarchist is truly a right winger IMO. While the fascist and a communist are not really far apart, because the government controls every thing. The different is who runs industry (or thinks they do).

That's My Two Cents
on Nov 21, 2004
neocon isnt the same as rightwinger or necessarily radical


Kingbee

What is your definition of a NeoCon and a right winger. The reason I put them in the same category is because I feel they are on the other side of Mainstream even if they do branch a little. They are at the same spot on the chart but really two different things. I also don't see a NeoCon going much farther down the chart. But you need to put the abortion Doctor killers somewhere and that may be the place in the 1-9 area.

Also Green Peace and the other tree huggers could be placed at the top. The interesting thing is, I've met a few green peaces activist and many are not socialist. Most are successful people that just found a cause.

That's My Two Cents
on Nov 21, 2004
Lee: I love your individual-by-individual breakdown (can we assume your Gore moment was a slightly exaggerated, frustated, amused, sarcastic one?) Your linear breakdown is definitely more detailed than mine, and I knew perspective would play a role in the category labels. And yes, anarchy is the ultimate expression of reactionary ideology. Well said.

Cacto and KingBee: You're both right, of course. The actual model I was taught was a horse-shoe. Extremist beliefs ironically resemble each other from an objective standpoint; however the subjective perspectives are incompatable. Has anyone ever read any of Ann Rand's takes on Nietzsche? It's wonderful to see how much admiration she has for someone whose philosophy is nonsense to her!

TBT

on Nov 21, 2004
And yes, anarchy is the ultimate expression of reactionary ideology


Interesting that you place it on the right though, anarchism basically being a communal ideology, distinct from communism only in its negation of the state. Actually the two developed hand in hand and only split during a schism not unlike the one experienced in christianity.
on Nov 21, 2004
Yes, it's odd how similar concepts end up on opposite ends. Anarchy and Communism, though, are opposite ends for good reason: anarchy is a reversion (I'm not using this in a negative sense) to the individual as center of his/her destiny, while communism is the ultimate expression of social revolution, where the community becomes the individual, with one interlocking purpose. Neither concept strikes me as a warm wholesome place to raise children, though there are (and always will) be many arguments supporting both ideals.

Republican and Democratic parties have shifted toward the left and the right throughout their respective histories. I love it: we see left and right as the choices we are making when we vote--this shows how narrow our vision and how polarized our country has become--but the Dem platform and the Rep platform overlapped in several places this election...and borrowed each other's so-called ideology leanings in other places.

TBT
on Nov 21, 2004
anarchy is a reversion (I'm not using this in a negative sense) to the individual as center of his/her destiny,


Yes, but only a reversion in an existential sense, where the decision of the individual is a decision taken on behalf of the whole community. Even communism was created with the individual as "centre of his/her destiny", although not as the subjugated and subsumed individual of capitalism, but an individual free to fulfil their full creative potential. Anarchism and communism differed mainly because one believed the state was necessary and the other did not.
on Nov 21, 2004
Even communism was created with the individual as "centre of his/her destiny", although not as the subjugated and subsumed individual of capitalism


Needless to say, it's failure in practice should not be used as a criticism of its ideological intentions. We are talking about an idealised spectrum.
on Nov 22, 2004
I agree with you. Does the anarchist believe that anarchy is an inevitable evolution of history, though, the way Marxism tends toward the Hegelian historical evolution? In my mind, Engels and Marx, when they linked themselves to Hegelian philosophy, created this whole new aspect of societal consciousness. Anarchy seems like less of an inevitable evolution, and more of an awakening....

TBT
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