Taboo's Junk Trunk: A Storage Dump for Taboo's Random Literary and Cultural Blatherments
Label Your Favorite Media Majesty
Published on November 21, 2004 By TaBooTenente In Politics
When it comes to stating our political beliefs these days, we play loosely and aggressively with our declarations. We're the Phil Helmuths and Scotty Nyugens rather than the Howard Lederers and the Johnie Chans of ideologies.



This last round, we Democrats have stolen a favorite tactic of the ghost of Republican Past: the label tactic. Painting GW Bush as anything from cokehead frat boy to a certain fascist regime dictator seemed like a healthy pastime; moreover, it served to whip our disinterested party members into standing in late night poll lines while diehards brought in saucy pizzas and fizzy beverages for sustennance. Unfortunately for us, we also whipped undecideds, moderates, and disaffiliated Republicans into straightening their ties and making their own stand at the polls, into flipping the bird into the face of the unattractive arrogance we have developed.

Political spinning and strategery aside, not only does the labeling seem anti-productive, but seems largely inaccurate to me. Looking for a new, less shrill voice in an earlier article, I believed Draginol, T.B., Dr. Miller (and other conservatives) and I(and other liberlas) were closing in on a consensus as to where the polar divide began, and how certain liberals could approach the problem.

Then this happened:

TaBooTenente states: "One other thing: while I'm willing to accept the left-loonies on my own bill, I'm finding that conservatives tend to disassociate themselves with the right-wing extremists. It creates an unfair balance. Michael Moore offends you (me too, as I've said) into a conservative stance, but I'm supposed to view David Duke as an abnormality?"

T.B. responds (in reference to when he began to feel morally attacked by liberals: I felt like my senses were insulted, my beliefs challenged and a good man attacked by a group of fringe left wackos. I don't know that any particular point was a trigger, more like a continuum that served to continuously push me to further support the Administration (from being lukewarm at best). and "Absolutley!! David Duke was not legitimized by the party whereas MM was, at least what I saw, embraced." (which was a good point, by the way)

TaBooTenente: "David Duke may not be recognized by the Republican Party, but he represents a human being who has taken rightist ideology further into the continuum." and "as much as Fahreinheit 9/11 frustrated me, as did much of MM's antics as the election approached, I would never think of MM, Kerry, or Gore as the fringe left. Look, Kerry is about as middle-of-the-road as liberals get, and Gore's not far off that stride, either...or why do you think Nader keeps surfacing? Ralph Nader also is not ultra-fringe like many think; however, he's much further down the revolutionary ideology than most liberals are comfortable with."

Then Draginol enters with: "I'm sorry but Michael Moore absolutely IS a fringe left wing kook. And until the Democrats distance themselves from people like that they'll keep losing elections.

It is telling that when you look to the right for its kooks you really have to dig. David Duke? Man, he's been a fossil for 10+ years. Pat Robertson has been a nobody for 14 years. The kooky right wingers these days are people like Ann Coulter who is just an author and about as right wing as Al Franken is left wing. There is no Michael Moore of teh right. There's no Sean Penn of the right. There's no nasty, hatefilled violent protesters on teh right. To find that you have to go way back to the KKK (an organization founded by Democrats btw).
"

TaBooTenente: "As far as ideologies go, MM is not a fringe-leftist. His politics are not ultra-left. They ARE liberal, certainly, and they are not moderate. But there is a large gap between MM politics, and revolutionary politics."

And then, in a last passionate closing argument, Draginol reiterates: "And I am saying that no, MM IS a fringe-leftists. His politics ARE ultra-left. I'm really surprised you think he's a mainstream liberal. Have you read any of his books? The only thing that keeps him from being completely out there is that he is (obviously) a capitalist.

Draginol makes an interesting point, but I reviewed my previous comments and realized I had never labeled Michael Moore as a "mainstream liberal". Hmm.

So, if We the People are loving us some labels, maybe it's time to revisit what we mean when we throw around affectionate cuddle-bunny nicknames like "Redneck Hickville Rube" or "Arrogant Traitorous Pinko Nutjob". More specifically, we should understand what we mean when we use terms like "Ultra-Right" or "Fringe Left" or even "Moderate".

I propose this as a generic, basic, linear ideology model:

[--(1)REVOLUTIONARISM--(2)COMMUNISM--(3)SOCIALISM--(4)LIBERALISM--(5)MODERN MAINSTREAM LIBERALISM--(6)L-BALANCED-R--(7)MODERATE--(8)CONSERVATIVE--(9)RIGHT-WING/ MINIMALIST GOVERNMENT--(10)FASCISM--(11)REACTIONARISM--]

Now: where would you classify the "fringe left"? Where would you place the following people: T. Kennedy, Gore, Kerry, MM, GWBush, McCain, A. Coultier, and any others you can think of? Why? Maybe this is the place to start. Then we can get back to some serious name-calling.


TBT
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Comments (Page 3)
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on Nov 22, 2004
Once again, a strong argument to have a circular, rather than linear model.


Since the far right and far left do paradoxilly start to share characteristics, they're not teh same, so it would be more like a circle with about the bottom 20% taken off, like a horseshoe shape.
on Nov 22, 2004
the problem with the left trying to distance themselves from the radical left is they are not allowed to by the most vocal of the right. they are putting labels on him by saying he represents the democratic party, which he does not. but if enough people on the right say he does, then he does. there is also the problem of some other visible members of the radical left embracing him and again making it seem that for the left he is mainstream. you got bill maier, al franken and garafilo all putting him in as mainstream and that he speaks for them. unfortunately, they are visible representative that are also seen by the right as mainstream. imagine if ann coulter and rush limbaugh said david dukes makes alot of good points and represents alot of the ideals of the average conservative. how difficult would it be to distance from him. I don't know of any mainstream democrats that embraced michael moore.
on Nov 22, 2004
I agree, Whoman. But the labeling is only part of the problem...or, at least, it leads to other problems.

Take the label "mainstream". Someone suggested using a Gaussian statistical distribution, which details labels by standard deviations from popular opinion. Though the results differ any ideology model results, it does provide an excellent tool for determining current party parameters.

Now, when a party comes together in order to confront an opponent, as the Dems did against GWB, the alignment becomes complicated. The true "fringe left" for the most part felt that voting against GWB was more important than stretching the ideology this round. Their presence squished some Dem leaders into uncomfortable labels. So when Reps start labeling, and Dem candidates want distance themselves, Dems relabel themselves.

I don't think MM is a complete misfit. I just think that the real misfits are joining in the fray now, and squeezing MM over into places where other people find his presence uncomfortable.

Republicans would never legitimize someone like David Duke, unless the most reactionary voters felt it necessary to dethrone a liberal. If they did, the Republicans would be forced to deal with some names we haven't heard in awhile.

Look at someone like Pat Buchanon. In my mid, he probably occupies the similar, opposite position on the scale to MM. When Clinton's second term came to an end, the Reps realized they had a chance to steal the center once again. Old faces emerged. Pat Buchanon was given his pulpit.

TBT
on Nov 23, 2004
D.B. I'm not sure why you classify Kerry as the 2.5% left fringe. I assume you are referring to a voting record, rather than a policy platform, but again I'm not clear.


Exactly, my placment was based solely on voting record (BTW it's T B ). It could be argued that Kerry occupies just the left end of the spectrum (that 13 to 16%). Additionally, if you were to take just the last 5 years of Kerry on votes he is more toward the middle (yet still left).

im not sure about db. 68% as the middle? thats pretty broad for a middle party


Yes, 68% is just the way a normal (Gaussian or Bell curve) statistical distribution works (see below). It's pretty common to use the distribution in statistics, Teachers use it loosely for grading (hence, grading on a "curve", 68% of the class would get a C, 13.5% a B and a D, and 2.5% an A and an F), I regularly use it for statistical analysis of mechanical sub systems and manufacturing engineering (it is the basis for Japanese quality control as taught to them by Dr. Deming).



The zero point is the middle (center axis of the curve, known as X bar), under the curve there are 34.13% right and 34.13% left of the middle (plus one sigma and minus one sigma) hence the 68% total. Using Gay marriage as an a example, most polls show that about 65% of Americans are against it, pretty much the middle of the curve, so statistically it can be quantified, people with views that would fall on the outside (either left or right) of this bandwidth would be considered not in the middle.

It is interesting how these numbers bear out regularly. Many Senate votes are commonly 85-15, 87-13, 80-20 showing that one extreme didn't support it (the 13 to 16% on one side of the curve). The individuals that comprise this minority changes from issue to issue (and often times creates strange bedfellows). One way to gauge how "middle" a bill is, is by the vote. A bill getting 55 votes did not get all of the middle. It is also interesting that to override a veto a 2/3rds majority is required (effectively the 68% of the middle).

But I do find it interesting the way your model adapts to current popular opinion. You are suggesting that popular opinion establishes the middle ground


Yes, popular opinion does establish the middle and that middle regularly shifts. Political debate and talking points are just the appeal a party (or political action group) makes to the populace either in an attempt to shift the middle, or for where they believe the middle is, in an attempt to garner enough votes to be elected or shift opinion. Think about American politics in time context, McCarthyism, Women's right to Vote, Slavery, Civil Unions, clearly what was middle (or majority belief) in different time frames of reference has shifted. There is also geographic context. The model only serves to validate someones political "label" within the geographic and time frame context, in no way does it illustrate what is correct. What is correct, for me, is what works to solve a problem or injustice. Time and results will ultimately decide if an action was correct (which is one of the reasons the debate on Iraq is not very useful).

I understand your model confines itself to U.S. politics; still, wouldn't an extremist popular regime nullify or negate the model's utility?


I'm sure it would work for other countries as well, France for example could be modeled the same (a specific time/geographic context), the middle would just be much further left. Curves can be created on an issue by issue basis as well as for the entire body politic. Most will find that they are part of the middle on most issues, and part of the minority on others. People that find themselves in the extreme minority regularly could be considered fringe. However, it is all about frame of reference. Someone considered fringe left in the US, could move to Sweden and be considered just left or even middle, whereas someone in the US leaning right which relocated there might be considered Draconian fringe right.

senate voting isnt a completely fair way to judge someone


Agreed for the most part. It lends itself to an illustration easily because there are 100 Senators (makes it easy to assign individuals to percentages). However, if a Senator is regularly voting with a block of 10 or 11 others on bills that pass, it says something about their views, they can't be considered mainstream.

Take the new Minority leader as an example (Harry Reid). On spending, he is rather liberal, on gun control, defense and pro-life much more toward the middle, even right leaning. Reid regularly votes with the majority on defense bills. As a result it is difficult to label him as left. On an issue by issue basis Reid's views shift along the spectrum from pretty far left to leaning right, taken as a whole, he is likely left leaning middle.
on Nov 23, 2004
D.B. I'm not sure why you classify Kerry as the 2.5% left fringe. I assume you are referring to a voting record, rather than a policy platform, but again I'm not clear.


Exactly, my placment was based solely on voting record (BTW it's T B ). It could be argued that Kerry occupies just the left end of the spectrum (that 13 to 16%). Additionally, if you were to take just the last 5 years of Kerry on votes he is more toward the middle (yet still left).

im not sure about db. 68% as the middle? thats pretty broad for a middle party


Yes, 68% is just the way a normal (Gaussian or Bell curve) statistical distribution works (see below). It's pretty common to use the distribution in statistics, Teachers use it loosely for grading (hence, grading on a "curve", 68% of the class would get a C, 13.5% a B and a D, and 2.5% an A and an F), I regularly use it for statistical analysis of mechanical sub systems and manufacturing engineering (it is the basis for Japanese quality control as taught to them by Dr. Deming).



The zero point is the middle (center axis of the curve, known as X bar), under the curve there are 34.13% right and 34.13% left of the middle (plus one sigma and minus one sigma) hence the 68% total. Using Gay marriage as an a example, most polls show that about 65% of Americans are against it, pretty much the middle of the curve, so statistically it can be quantified, people with views that would fall on the outside (either left or right) of this bandwidth would be considered not in the middle.

It is interesting how these numbers bear out regularly. Many Senate votes are commonly 85-15, 87-13, 80-20 showing that one extreme didn't support it (the 13 to 16% on one side of the curve). The individuals that comprise this minority changes from issue to issue (and often times creates strange bedfellows). One way to gauge how "middle" a bill is, is by the vote. A bill getting 55 votes did not get all of the middle. It is also interesting that to override a veto a 2/3rds majority is required (effectively the 68% of the middle).

But I do find it interesting the way your model adapts to current popular opinion. You are suggesting that popular opinion establishes the middle ground


Yes, popular opinion does establish the middle and that middle regularly shifts. Political debate and talking points are just the appeal a party (or political action group) makes to the populace either in an attempt to shift the middle, or for where they believe the middle is, in an attempt to garner enough votes to be elected or shift opinion. Think about American politics in time context, McCarthyism, Women's right to Vote, Slavery, Civil Unions, clearly what was middle (or majority belief) in different time frames of reference has shifted. There is also geographic context. The model only serves to validate someones political "label" within the geographic and time frame context, in no way does it illustrate what is correct. What is correct, for me, is what works to solve a problem or injustice. Time and results will ultimately decide if an action was correct (which is one of the reasons the debate on Iraq is not very useful).

I understand your model confines itself to U.S. politics; still, wouldn't an extremist popular regime nullify or negate the model's utility?


I'm sure it would work for other countries as well, France for example could be modeled the same (a specific time/geographic context), the middle would just be much further left. Curves can be created on an issue by issue basis as well as for the entire body politic. Most will find that they are part of the middle on most issues, and part of the minority on others. People that find themselves in the extreme minority regularly could be considered fringe. However, it is all about frame of reference. Someone considered fringe left in the US, could move to Sweden and be considered just left or even middle, whereas someone in the US leaning right which relocated there might be considered Draconian fringe right.

senate voting isnt a completely fair way to judge someone


Agreed for the most part. It lends itself to an illustration easily because there are 100 Senators (makes it easy to assign individuals to percentages). However, if a Senator is regularly voting with a block of 10 or 11 others on bills that pass, it says something about their views, they can't be considered mainstream.

Take the new Minority leader as an example (Harry Reid). On spending, he is rather liberal, on gun control, defense and pro-life much more toward the middle, even right leaning. Reid regularly votes with the majority on defense bills. As a result it is difficult to label him as left. On an issue by issue basis Reid's views shift along the spectrum from pretty far left to leaning right, taken as a whole, he is likely left leaning middle.
on Nov 23, 2004
D.B. I'm not sure why you classify Kerry as the 2.5% left fringe. I assume you are referring to a voting record, rather than a policy platform, but again I'm not clear.


Exactly, my placement was based solely on voting record (BTW it's T B ). It could be argued that Kerry occupies just the left end of the spectrum (that 13 to 16%). Additionally, if you were to take just the last 5 years of Kerry on votes he is more toward the middle (yet still left).

im not sure about db. 68% as the middle? thats pretty broad for a middle party


Yes, 68% is just the way a normal (Gaussian or Bell curve) statistical distribution works (see below). It's pretty common to use the distribution in statistics, Teachers use it loosely for grading (hence, grading on a "curve", 68% of the class would get a C, 13.5% a B and a D, and 2.5% an A and an F), I regularly use it for statistical analysis of mechanical sub systems and manufacturing engineering (it is the basis for Japanese quality control as taught to them by Dr. Deming).



The zero point is the middle (center axis of the curve, known as X bar), under the curve there are 34.13% right and 34.13% left of the middle (plus one sigma and minus one sigma) hence the 68% total. Using Gay marriage as an a example, most polls show that about 65% of Americans are against it, pretty much the middle of the curve, so statistically it can be quantified, people with views that would fall on the outside (either left or right) of this bandwidth would be considered not in the middle.

It is interesting how these numbers bear out regularly. Many Senate votes are commonly 85-15, 87-13, 80-20 showing that one extreme didn't support it (the 13 to 16% on one side of the curve). The individuals that comprise this minority changes from issue to issue (and often times creates strange bedfellows). One way to gauge how "middle" a bill is, is by the vote. A bill getting 55 votes did not get all of the middle. It is also interesting that to override a veto a 2/3rds majority is required (effectively the 68% of the middle).

But I do find it interesting the way your model adapts to current popular opinion. You are suggesting that popular opinion establishes the middle ground


Yes, popular opinion does establish the middle and that middle regularly shifts. Political debate and talking points are just the appeal a party (or political action group) makes to the populace either in an attempt to shift the middle, or for where they believe the middle is, in an attempt to garner enough votes to be elected or shift opinion. Think about American politics in time context, McCarthyism, Women's right to Vote, Slavery, Civil Unions, clearly what was middle (or majority belief) in different time frames of reference has shifted. There is also geographic context. The model only serves to validate someones political "label" within the geographic and time frame context, in no way does it illustrate what is correct. What is correct, for me, is what works to solve a problem or injustice. Time and results will ultimately decide if an action was correct (which is one of the reasons the debate on Iraq is not very useful).

I understand your model confines itself to U.S. politics; still, wouldn't an extremist popular regime nullify or negate the model's utility?


I'm sure it would work for other countries as well, France for example could be modeled the same (a specific time/geographic context), the middle would just be much further left. Curves can be created on an issue by issue basis as well as for the entire body politic. Most will find that they are part of the middle on most issues, and part of the minority on others. People that find themselves in the extreme minority regularly could be considered fringe. However, it is all about frame of reference. Someone considered fringe left in the US, could move to Sweden and be considered just left or even middle, whereas someone in the US leaning right which relocated there might be considered Draconian fringe right.

senate voting isnt a completely fair way to judge someone


Agreed for the most part. It lends itself to an illustration easily because there are 100 Senators (makes it easy to assign individuals to percentages). However, if a Senator is regularly voting with a block of 10 or 11 others on bills that pass, it says something about their views, they can't be considered mainstream.

Take the new Minority leader as an example (Harry Reid). On spending, he is rather liberal, on gun control, defense and pro-life much more toward the middle, even right leaning. Reid regularly votes with the majority on defense bills. As a result it is difficult to label him as left. On an issue by issue basis Reid's views shift along the spectrum from pretty far left to leaning right, taken as a whole, he is likely left leaning middle.
on Nov 23, 2004
Somehow my post showed up 3 times . Please delete two of them.
on Nov 23, 2004
I don't know of any mainstream democrats that embraced michael moore.


Then why was he invited to the DNC convention and given a seat next to Jimmy Carter? Seems to me the mainstream party would be required to approve the invite, if there was majority dissention he wouldn't have been there.
on Nov 23, 2004
TB (sorry for screwing that one up):

Again, thanks for providing the models.

The one part that still bothers me is the dependence this has on popular opinion. While it does a great job judging how a specific individual compares to the pop. opinion, it seems to have nothing to do with ideology. The reason I brought up international examples was because if you used this model in Nazi Germany, the pop opinion would be the nearly absolute right, allowing for no fringe activity in that direction, and a strange grouping in the supposed 2.5% on the left...I'm not even sure who that would include.

Of course, Communist Russia (at least at certain points in the brief history) would reveal the same problem, but the glut would appear on the far left end of the model. Because the ideology does not change, regardless of the pop opinion, right?

TBT
on Nov 23, 2004
Reid regularly votes with the majority on defense bills. As a result it is difficult to label him as left. On an issue by issue basis Reid's views shift along the spectrum from pretty far left to leaning right, taken as a whole, he is likely left leaning middle.


I personally think that by the Democrat party attacking Defense bills, and basically adding it to their platform after LBJ, was the start of its problems. Before LBJ we never equaled anti Defense with the Democratic Party (FDR, Truman and Kennedy was strong Defense supporters). I guess that is why many Democrats, that were at one time mainstream Democrats like Reid and Lieberman in the 60-70s, are considered only left leaning now. I think the main reason is that all those Anti-Vietnam demonstrators have slowly worked their way up the ranks of the Party.

I think this also explains one of the shifts in TB's bell curve.

That's My Two Cents
on Nov 23, 2004
Excellent point, Lee.

But (and I do not have any figures, so I apologize if I'm wrong) I also think the huge defense-spending--associated with Reagan's Star Wars plan, as well as what liberals might call indiscriminate defense relating to what everyone calls the Iraqi War, and what conservatives might call the war on terror--has changed the Democratic dynamic more than any lack of willingness to defend the country.

I'm just one liberal, and this is just one opinion, but I found it disheartening having to watch Kerry continually reiterate his desire to "hunt down and kill" the terrorists. The popular label says he's a liberal, and liberals are apparently anti-defense. So he was forced to continually stress this somewhat unattractive aspect of his personality, and became too delicate discussing his ideas on domestic issues.

TBT
on Nov 23, 2004
Then why was he invited to the DNC convention and given a seat next to Jimmy Carter? Seems to me the mainstream party would be required to approve the invite, if there was majority dissention he wouldn't have been there.


press, he was working for USA Today amongst others.
on Nov 23, 2004
I'm just one liberal, and this is just one opinion, but I found it disheartening having to watch Kerry continually reiterate his desire to "hunt down and kill" the terrorists. The popular label says he's a liberal, and liberals are apparently anti-defense. So he was forced to continually stress this somewhat unattractive aspect of his personality, and became too delicate discussing his ideas on domestic issues.


I agree with you and I'm not a liberal. I was not disheartened, but disgusted that he was willing to say such things and know that he really didn't believe (or had a record) to back those claims up. It would have taken a twenty page essay to explain all the nuances in his policies.

That's My Two Cents
on Nov 23, 2004
press, he was working for USA Today amongst others.


Really? USA Today hired him to cover the Republican Convention NOT the Dems. Did you see him in the press box at the DNC convention? Or the Presidential box? I can substantiate that he was invited. Can you subtantiate he was there as press? I doubt it.
on Nov 23, 2004
The reason I brought up international examples was because if you used this model in Nazi Germany, the pop opinion would be the nearly absolute right, allowing for no fringe activity in that direction, and a strange grouping in the supposed 2.5% on the left


Actually, Nazi Germany (rather just prior to it becoming Nazi) was quite left, not right. Hitler won running for the National Socialist German Workers' Party and his party never received a majority of the vote prior to him seizing power (best it did was 44% in 33' after Hitler was appointed Chancellor). Those that were considered conservatives (industry and aristocrats) didn't support the Nazi's. Hitler himself attacked Jews, the socialists and liberals, the capitalists and Communists early on (20's). Once he became chancellor/president he just executed or rounded up the outspoken opposition, so although I'm sure there was a political spectrum I doubt there is much documentation. I don't know that it can work for totalitarian rule because there is no way to know what people really think. If they are going to be executed for expressing an opposing view, that has a tendency to put a damper on free exchange of ideas. Hussein purportedly got 99% of the vote the last election though I don't think anyone really believes that the populace views were that homogeneous.
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